wildestlogs | In Which Caroline Organizes a Town Hall

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In Which Caroline Organizes a Town Hall

Who: Everyone
What: Caroline holds court and everyone hashes it out over how to organize.
Where: The Heartstone.
When: After the leadership post on the network.
Warnings/Notes: Conversations may get intense due to the baggage characters are bringing to any conversation about authority, particularly structural authority. Threadhopping is encouraged; my notifs are off and you can treat this like a network post, just with face-to-face interaction. The mods reserve the right to shut down threads or the post entirely if it gets out of hand.

Caroline and Stacia have, by now, made little portable deer-hide cushions for every person they've counted up in the camp, all fifty three. It's taken them a while, and in the meantime, Stacia was on the mirror network announcing her candidacy for leadership, and Caroline was in the background making little tutting and tch noises. This is why she doesn't do the internet.

Finally, she gets her own mirror out and makes an announcement, then arranges the little cushions for everyone in a wide, multi-tiered circle, staggered so everyone has a view towards the center, all at perfect fifteen degree angles to the one next to them. She sets six little campfires to ensure everything's well-lit. And she folds her arms and she waits.

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So like. I'm used to structure. I like structure. Stucture has kept me alive for years and it's just, you know, like, good for me as a person, I guess. That's something I understand about myself. And I'm lucky--I got structure here. Stacia and Ace are both higher up in the werewolf world than me, so in a crisis, I go looking for them to get instructions.

[ She clears her throat, frowns. ]

And that's like, regardless of how the rest of this shakes out. No offense, but I don't take fuckin' marching orders from anyone but them, and they don't even like giving orders unless they have to.

[ Mackenzie waves a hand, then settles her hands on her hips. ]

But, like. I don't expect everyone else to listen to Stacia. I mean, they should, because she's smart and knows what the fuck she's doing but I understand if people don't. So I'm like... we can't make people have structure that they don't want. If a bunch of y'all superheroes or whatever want to organize a team to kill shit, that's your business. I'm not saying not to do that, especially if makes you feel better.

What I'm saying is you can't expect anyone to actually listen if they don't want to listen. Like, Saturday and Kon over there about concessions and shit. Framing people not wanting to do what you say as 'making concessions' just sounds weird to me.

It's like if I were to say that because I've seen my whole pack get fucking gunned down by vampires and seen what happens when the Wyrm is winning, that means I get to make some kind of demand that people listen to Stacia. Or like people NOT listening to Stacia is me making concessions, which is just... we're starting from no one listening to jack and shit. I dunno. I'm not smart. I just kill shit. I'm a soldier. A warrior. A weapon. Wind me up and point me at the bad guys.

[ Mackenzie mimes pointing a gun with her thumb and forefinger. Bang. ]

Having like, votes and shit to put specific people in charge or makin' ourselves into a little unit... I can see the usefulness there, but I don't want to be doing that alongside people who aren't interested in doing it.

Edited 2021-12-02 00:10 (UTC)

Ah. Someone with a way with words and good reasoning. That's kind of a breath of fresh air.

[More like someone who was more interested than Ange in putting into the right words the general opinion she also has, and has more charisma than Ange does. Still, Ange fully agrees, although of course, she can't say she has even a iota of the fighting skill Mackenzie does]

[Saturday gives Mackenzie a nod

Well said.

[Dean was half paying attention during all the shit that went down on the mirror earlier, but he figures this is probably something he should show up for.

He wasn't really planning on speaking, the whole thing seemed kind of stupid to him, but biker chick's words really resonated with him, so he feels like he should probably say so.]

I'm with Linda Hamilton. [He jerks his thumb in Kenzie's direction.]

I'm a point-and-shoot guy myself. My old man's an ex-marine, I grew up with structure and discipline. I like knowing where I need to go and what I need to do, but I don't know y'all and I ain't following an order I don't like. No one owes anyone that. I'm happy to work with people and train and whatever, I'm happy to coordinate on supplies and shit, but I'm not having anyone holding my leash.

If I find someone I trust, great. Their judgement calls will mean somethin' to me. But you can't expect me to 'make concessions' or whatever just 'cause you think everyone should be doin' things the same way as you. You wanna be the Freak Force? Go for it, but don't drag me into it.

...You think I'm like, Linda Hamilton hot? Like Terminator 2 Linda Hamilton? Damn.

[ Mackenzie nods approvingly. ]

It's because I am, obviously, but good job noticing.

Edited 2021-12-02 00:39 (UTC)

[It's not what he meant, but he sure as shit isn't going to deny it. She looks like she could kick Dean's ass six ways to Sunday, and Dean's into it.]

Coulda' gone Trinity, I 'spose. Either way you're makin' it work.

[He doesn't go as far as winking because in their last interaction she was yelling at him for things that were in no way his fault, but he does smirk.]

Well, being a soldier in the werewolf wars'll do that to you.

[ SHRUG. She does like fluffing her ego up, though. ]

[Since Mackenzie mentioned him by name and Ace hasn't spoken up a lot on this subject other than to crack a few jokes and passively back whatever Stacia was planning its probably time he at least says something.

Ace nods to Dean and intercepts the pillow from wherever it is.

His tone is way more serious than anyone has seen from him so far but he is still friendly and earnest with a bit of a wry grin as he begins]

I think our ruggedly handsome friend here illustrates Mackenzie's point quite well.

Most people have been cooperative but some aren't going to toe the line no matter what and a few may be less likely to volunteer their skills if we try to impose a rigid hierarchy. Others are used to structure and are going to find it regardless.

We can organize but we can't expect too much of people without giving them reason to trust us first. [nods to Dean]

I've been on the kind of team some of you are talking about. [nods to Kon] That sort of thing doesn't work without consensus and if you build that trust or even earn it by reputation you can do amazing things.

I've also seen the abuses that can get shoved under the rug to maintain the image and the narrative needed to keep that consensus. [nods to Saturday]

I think we can all agree we will be more effective if we can work together. But we can't just magic that into existence with rules and votes.

I can tell we have a few seasoned political theory buffs in the crowd so I'll also say the quiet part out loud since that seems to be the roll I've found for myself so far. [He looks sheepish for a moment, recalling his shenanigans on the Network]

Rules imply enforcement. Enforcement implies violence. Violence implies the will to enact that violence.

You can't build trust under threat of violence.

So far other than a few scuffles everyone has been remarkably cool about all this.

For now maybe we just work on getting to know each other and learning how each of us can help with survival and defense. If there are problems we look to the mediators who have already volunteered [nods to Stacia and Elle] to talk to people and help figure it out. Not order or punish, talk.

In the meantime we come up with a plan for what to do if the shit hits the fan and we pitch it to the people who are skeptical. There are a lot of people here who can do a lot of cool shit and I don't think I've met a single one who truly wants to leave the others to rot or doesn't give a shit if they get caught in friendly fire. I think people will listen.

[Elle never though that she'd be grateful for a Silver Fang Silver-Fang-ing at a problem, but here she is. The day has come, and Ace managed to put it into words that don't sound defensive or from someone who's come across as contrary. Thank fuck she isn't the only one here who does the whole talking-with-people thing in an official capacity.]

I actually agree with most of this but people have got to stop about assuming violence was an implied consequences. People have also mentioned unofficial leadership with 0 consequences or actual enforcement and others have still assumed the worst.

That's not where we're coming from, so like Elle said about letting go of kneejerk first impressions, it's time to drop that one.

Some other people seem to be on the same page about small teams following what leadership they want - which probably won't be enforced with violence. The suggestions about a formal leader were made with the assumption it'd just be a bigger squad but people doing their own thing wouldn't be enforced with violence.

It's a lot more about just thinking a larger squad doing that will be more effective. But if people don't want it they don't want it.

Superhero team dynamics aren't the same as political ones and I think that's where the big misunderstanding is. When you don't want to follow a superhero team leader you just leave the team and solo. You don't get punished for it.

Edited 2021-12-02 01:48 (UTC)

Hey man, I get how that is frustrating, but you've got to understand that people aren't going to stop assuming that no matter how unfair it seems to you or how much you want them to.

Too many people have abused their power for too long, and even with the best intentions power has its roots in violence. If you tell me I can't do something, I disagree and you can't persuade me you only really have two options. Let me do it or use force to stop me. In the end, all rules are enforced with violence otherwise they wouldn't need to be rules.

That's an oversimplification, but it should serve to get the point across. I hear what you were suggesting and I see how frustrating it is to get this reaction. You were misunderstood and it sucks to see people jump to the negative conclusion. But at least part of the misunderstanding came from your own perspective on power and authority being very different from a lot of the people you were talking to.

I don't disagree with coming from a different perspective but now that that's all explained, it's time to let the whole "this was a suggestion to allow for violent abuse of power" go.

Post-explanation.

Assuming it earlier? Reasonable, sure.

Now? After talking about it? That's people bad faithing it up.

[Elle speaks softly.]

No one has the option to leave the team, here, and we didn't agree to be a team in the first place. We've been stuck together by circumstance, not choice. Those are foundational differences that separate those scenarios with the reality we're dealing with.

[She pauses for a moment, considering her words. She speaks carefully.]

Any person with power over another has the potential to wield it against them.

If you're unarmed and you punch someone who is also unarmed, they can punch you back, whether they deserved it or not.

If you're unarmed and you punch someone with a weapon? Yeah, they can punch you back. But they can also use that weapon against you. Even if they deserved it. Even if they're the person you trust most in the world, there is an inherent threat in the fact that they're armed in the first place.

That's where the fear comes from. Not from a promise of violence, but in the potential for escalation that comes with established power dynamics.

[She bites her lip, unsure if she should keep speaking. She decides to stop, for now, and passes the pillow back to Caroline.]

I'm not saying the situation is identical. I'm saying that we've learned to operate in a way where people don't get punished for things.

And saying that's where we came from originally.

Now that everyone knows, it's probably time to stop talking about it like we meant something else. You said yourself: We have to drop our initial knee jerk assumptions.

[Elle takes a moment to remind herself that she wants this whole situation to actually be resolved. She does not need to clarify every inaccuracy or misrepresentation. That would not be productive.]

I think we all agree that working in groups isn't a problem, it's not sharing information or resources between those groups that would be, or one group becoming more influential than others. We don't want to become divided amongst ourselves. If we can agree to that, then I believe we have a solid foundation for teamwork.

We can function as a large group and in smaller groups as different situations call for it. If someone prefers work with better with structure, people can fulfill those needs on an individual basis, like Kenzie was describing.

We can do party-wide organization informally, because that seems to be working so far. If there are problems, we can deal with them as we come by talking it out.

[Caroline takes the pillow back.]

I don't see anyone still making those assumptions, so I think the smoke is cleared - for everyone who actually showed up here tonight. If some of the people who decided to sit out still have issues, they can suck it up.

I think it's one of those things then where someone re-explaining something can make it seem like people aren't moving on.

I can drop it if that's the case.

The people who didn't show up may end up needing to hear it again, but thankfully, I took minutes. [Caroline holds out her forearm, where she's been jotting down the major points of the discussion in tidy, tiny print.]

[After this scuffle is over, Saturday approaches Ace. He may have seen her around before; she's a slender woman, heavily muscled with a mop of dark hair and pointed ears, who moves through the world with perfect confidence]

Just wanted to say, thanks for laying it out clear like that. If you an' Elle an Caroline weren't here, I think people might'a started throwin' punches by now.

[her own terror and ineloquence helped things get to this point; she feels, in a way, that they're cleaning up her mess; one that, despite her apologies to Kon and Tim, she's still too riled up to be really useful fixing]

[Ace is really pleased to have someone recognize his contribution. He is so used to people assuming his intentions because of who and what he is that he is usually happy if he can just get people to pay enough lip service to keep order. Maybe he really can get a fresh start here.

He has only seen Saturday in passing but he recognizes her confidence as the mirror of his own.]

Thanks. For better or worse I'm used to big meetings full of people with hot tempers. This is honestly... tame, though I agree it might not have stayed that way.

Elle and Caroline did most of the work. You too, honestly. You may not have been willing to coddle anyone but you kept your cool and laid things out.

Glad I could provide another angle on it from someone who hadn't become and 'opponent' yet.

[Ace casts his voice low so only Saturday can hear, or at least so that anyone with super-hearing will know it is supposed to be private]

Better to soothe an idealistic kid's hurt feelings now than having to do my real job. I'd probably have felt the same way he does once and its impossible to learn those lessons out of order.

[Saturday notes the quiet confidence, and approves. Flash is insecurity; real operators keep it smooth and low. His ]

You're one of Stacia's folk, right? She an' Elle have talked about you guys having tempers. And yeah, they did good work tonight.

[she starts a little as his whisper. her response is just as quiet]

He's just scared. I keep forgettin' not everyone here's used to bein' yanked around like this, world to world.

Edited 2021-12-02 06:01 (UTC)

[Ace nods agreement and returns to conversational volume]

Got it in one. Stacia and I go way back, actually. Some friends and I found her in the woods the night she shifted for the first time. We've been pretty much inseparable ever since. Well, except when the universe you know, separated us.

And yeah, real angry bunch our lot. I'm no exception. I just tend to get angry at different stuff. Also I've generally got plenty of valid and cathartic targets for my anger. I've gotten pretty good and making sure it doesn't blow back on my friends. Hopefully it will be the same here.

[Ace gives a slightly feral grin]

Also this place is a lot different from back home. There is definitely less of an edge to things.

Did I hear you say you had been bounced around to five different worlds?"

This place is a paradise compared t'the last joint. [she gestures] Fuckers hit harder than expected, but at least I can hit 'em

An' yeah. It's a long story, but the short version is, this creepy cult was making people braindead, like, body still works but no one's home? So that their creepy extradimensional horror master could infest them with its creepy little bug spirit minions an' then they could take over the world.

Shit went sideways, had to blow the hive with us inside, shoulda died, didn't. Got thrown into the astral by the psychic shockwave instead. Been getting bounced around ever since.

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just_ace - 2021-12-04 01:57 (UTC) - Expand

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wheyoftheadept - 2021-12-06 00:54 (UTC) - Expand

Yeah, but there are also people that have mentioned worrying about people striating off into their own little groups.

But hey, if people are fine with me not wanting to team up because I'd rather listen to someone else leading, and I've got that someone, I'm fine with that. That's a fair deal. I've got my people I'll pair off with in a fight instead of other people. And maybe I'll trust other people like that eventually but...

We just have to be prepared for the fact those groups might sometimes work at odds.

Forming social groups is a natural part of us all being stuck together. Groups aren't the problem, exclusion and special treatment is.

I believe everyone is okay with having specific people that they fight alongside or whatever, it's stuff like hoarding resources or unequal medical attention that we're trying to prevent. And people don't want any one group to become dominant over any other. The easiest way to accomplish that is for none of the groups to have real power.

Falling into a tribalist mentality is different from having people you trust and who fulfill your emotional needs.

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